Nigel Owens and The Top 10 Athletes Who Celebrated Too Soon

OJ BORG    00:00:05   

Hello   and welcome - I'm being bombastic. Sorry. Raya are I need to calm down? Just calm me down and say calming things,  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:00:12   

Mate. Just chill. It's my job to be ADHD. Oh, wait a minute. We're both ADHD.  

OJ BORG    00:00:19   

Can we cancel each other out? Because two negatives make a positive and two positives. Also the two positives also make a positive.  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:00:27   

I, yes, I believe so. Especially when you and I are as hyper as anything. So positives part of positives. Keep it up, buddy. Keep it up. There's nothing I can say to calm you down.  

OJ BORG    00:00:37   

No. And if that wasn't the most ADHD opening to any podcast ever. I don't know what is. Welcome to the Good Time Sports Club I'm OJ  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:00:44   

And I'm Raya Hubbell  

OJ BORG 00:00:45   

Raya Hubbell um, tell me your weekend sport. Was it good? Was it bad? Was it indifferent?

RAYA HUBBELL    00:00:54   

It was rubbish.  We had my final saving grace, the one race I thought I was gonna get to do this year in Turkey in three weeks time didn't get cancelled. But as we know, Turkey has just been added to the  ban, well not banned travel, but I have to isolate when I come home and I can't do that for 14 days. So although I am still sending 20 out of 50 of my athletes to Turkey, because 20 of them can self isolate on the way home. I will be following them from the app tracker rather than actually on the course with them, which just sucks

OJ BORG    00:01:37   

Dot watching. It's not a winner. I had a bit of disappointing racing news as well. I was racing on Swift. I joined a league, a joined a league. It was just, it was a six week league and, and I am outraged. I was outrageously proud of this. I called my mom and told her about it. But after four weeks I was leading it due to a very strong performance in the first week, which was a TT.

RAYA HUBBELL 00:01:50

Was this the handicap Time trial.

OJ BORG 00:01:55

No, no, no. That's a different league. I was doing with just friends. This was a proper full on with people running it and I did the Time trial and I nailed everyone in the C’s. I just, I just squeaked in under the C’s and yeah, I had like a 25 second. I had a 25 second lead and then every other race from then based I didn't win them, but I was only a second or two off the leaders.   Therefore I still going into week five, I had about 17 seconds. I was still chasing first place. And I was very proud. The problem is the race went on at 7:40pm and my wife has been working late. So she works in 2pm to 10pm. The problem being, I then have to try and schedule her work around lunch, break around when I'm working. Cause the kids are just not in bed. Anyway, my daughter lost her little toy avocado, which she sleeps with her tonight. Don't ask, it’s the most middle class thing ever, um, and had a meltdown mode. The child wouldn't go to bed. The race went on longer than it should have done. They should have been done within an hour, an hour and 20 I'm still going. Basically I was threatened with divorce if I didn't get off the bike. So with about 4kms to go, I had to climb off and I lost my position in the race and I've refused to go back for the final week. I was just like, if I'm not, I'm not going back. Toys, crown, the metaphysical virtual bike in a bush  

RAYA HUBBEL    00:03:13   

And an avocado cuddly toy? 

OJ BORG    00:03:16   

What the worst thing was though, we bought two more. The next day, they did start as a joke. Cause I live in an area which is very much, you know, poached, eggs and avocado on sourdough toast. Um, and we bought two more. Got a next day delivery just as we found the one that we thought we'd lost. And another one that we thought we'd lost as well. Another bag. So basically there's now four soft avocados in my house.

RAYA HUBBEL    00:03:20  

You know at the supermarket they come in a pack of four. So now you are a hundred percent middle-class  

OJ BORG   00:03:44  

These are not real avocados right  

RAYA HUBBELL 00:03:48   

Now that you've got four stuff, soft avocados in a pack of four. Congratulations, my friend you've made it.  

OJ BORG    00:03:55   

My first autobiography can be called ‘four stuffed avocados.’ I think that's a great anyway, let's get into the Sports news on the Good Time Sports Club as we were working you in come to the tuck shop of which you explained to Raya last time. Well, that was a we'll start with the Tennessee Titans. They could be in jeopardy of punishment from the NFL, after the alleged failure to follow the leagues Coronavirus protocols led to a spike in cases. This is sort of story, but you're seeing all over the place at the moment, the team have had 23 positive tests since the end of September and they wear masks. They wear masks who thought coronavirus can go through a helmet.  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:04:28   

23 sounds excessive. I wonder what sort of training regime they've got employed?  

OJ BORG    00:04:35   

They were doing that famous NFL training regime where you have to lick each other over and over again. It's like a shuttle run where you're lucky till the last person gets briefed  without a mask or with a mask.

RAYA HUBBELL 00:04:50

There was a double celebration for Francis international Olivier Giroud this week as he picked up his hundredth cap and broke Michel Platini his goal scoring record with two goals against Ukraine in Paris. Ooh, LA LA,  

OJ BORG 00:05:01   

I think you mean Michael Platini. And finally, controversial plans to build an F1 track in a Brazilian forest. This is ridiculous. Has been met with criticism from world champion, Lewis Hamilton. He said, I heard it's going to be a sustainable race, but the most sustainable thing you can do is not tear down any trees.  

RAYA HUBBELL 00:05:19   

Yeah. Wow. Smart man. From, you know, those words are incredibly intelligent.

OJ BORG 00:05:27   

Yeah,   he is. He's very, he's very, very good, very outspoken on all the right cases. Now our guest this week has refereed a Rugby World Cup final and six European rugby finals. But to call them just a referee would undermine his influence on the game. He is amazing. I've always been a fan of this man of, of just the way he talks, the way he takes over the game. The way he has been, who he is, he's renowned for his quick wit and sharp put downs, he’s the man that made, “this is not soccer” a catchphrase. He’s earned the respect and adulation of rugby fans worldwide. His decision to reveal that he was gay back 2008 and his openness about his battles with bulimia and depression have seen him become a figurehead for voices that are often repressed in modern sport. For a referee to have in excess of half a million followers on the social media channels highlights his enduring popularity. And when Raya caught up with Nigel Owens it was something on his Instagram page that caught her attention.  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:06:20   

The very first post I saw was your latest post, which is you in between the two presidential candidates. I feel like this is maybe how you see yourself as a referee and how we should all maybe see you as a reference. What would you have said as a referee to those candidates and their behaviour?

NIGEL OWENS 00:06:40

Grow up! I think would have been the first thing

RAYA HUBBELL 00:06:45

Apart from being impartial, what qualities makes a good referee?

NIGEL OWENS 00:06:50

There's a lot of different, different qualities, you know, I suppose if you should play whatever sport you play, you know, for you to be good at your sport, it may require a lot of different qualities and ability and skills. And if you have all the activities also able to deal with decision making or performance under huge pressure. One of my best mates is a professional darts player. Now, when you play down the pub that there are players there, they'll throw the darts and they're absolutely brilliant, but then you put them on stage and they go to pieces because, because of the pressure, my mate is he can do the pressure. That's why he does well on the darts circle. And I think, especially with the refereeing as well, whatever's going to play sport. You have a lot of attributes that contribute to what you need to do. And one of them would be probably one of the biggest things I think is, is dealing with that pressure, that decision making under pressure, particularly in the modern game today, you where every decision you make is no replay with the big screens. So 10 years ago, if you made a mistake, you didn't know you made a mistake until you watch the game back again, neither did the players and they didn't have the spectators. Now everybody knows including yourself, you got something wrong and you could see it on the screen, then five seconds. And then, you know, I got that wrong that then can affect some referees for the rest of the game because it can't deal with that pressure.   And if you can't do that pressure, that determines the difference between the ones who get to the top and stay at the top. And those maybe who don't quite make it or those that do make it and then when a big game comes about they go to pieces and they sort of get, get found out. There's a lot of attributes, obviously your understanding of the game and understanding of the laws of the game, probably what contributed to make you a better referee is knowing when not to blow the whistle, because knowing when to blow, it is very easy. Your, your fitness, um, your man management of the players, dealing with it under pressure, dealing with big characters on the field. There's a many, many things really that, um, that contribute hugely to, um, you know, to make a new way a good official really. And, um, and also the enjoyment of it as well, you know, cause whatever you do, you have to enjoy it. So, you know, if it gets you down, if it worries you about performing well, not feeling, not enjoying it, then you're not going to be at your best. So there's so many different attributes. I think that, and also, you know, being, being honest, being honest, and your integrity is one of the most important things, but also your openness and honesty and accepting. When you could have done better, you should do better. What decision you've got, you know, wrong law. You could have made a better one next day. And when you learn from that, then your up your openness and your honesty and saying, yeah, that wasn't good enough. I to learn and be sure that I don't make that same mistake or that performance again,  

RAYA HUBBELL   00:09:57   

There there's clearly a huge importance to impartiality and also being able to deal with a huge amount of scrutiny, you know, how do you deal with that scrutiny? Because today's world is very different. Every single moment that you're on, that pitch you're recorded. Everyone can hear what you're saying, you're miked up. Um, how do you, how do you cope when you know, you make, you do make a mistake or you get called out for a controversial decision? 

NIGEL OWENS    00:10:27   

Well, I think it's that there's something in you that allows you to deal with that. It doesn't make it any more pleasant or that you enjoy getting the abuse. And you know, when things don't go your way or your performance is not what you expect it to be or what it should be, but it's not for everybody. So there's something in you that enables you to deal with that pressure with the scrutiny, with, particularly with social media today, everybody having a say on your view, on everything, on your performance, having a view on your performance. So it's in you. And this is sometimes… I’ve spoken to a lot of rugby players who, you know, they go through a bad patch of form or the achievement of playing well and they bear the brunt of their fans or, you know, the general fans of the country or whatever. And a lot of them say to me, they just go off to twitter, they switch their social media off of Instagram, they just don't go on because the abuse they get and they say to me, ”how can you, how can you cope with it as a referee,” then something in you that allows you to quote me. You don't like it, it doesn't make it any nicer, but to give me guess person a little bit, you have to be able to deal with it. You wouldn't be able to do this job for example. Um, but I'm, that's what I, you know, so there's something in you. And also I think, you know, you have, you know, a bit quiet confidence in not, not all the confidence, not, not arrogance, but confidence in your own ability to make those big decisions. I think what, what I was taught by a coach - the great Derek Bevan for many years, um, a world cup final referee himself, and one of the first things he taught me when, when he was coaching me was any question for many, many years. One of the first things you said to me, look, if you're going to go up in that field or Saturday, and you're thinking not going to make a mistake, then you were not going to be very happy after the game because there is no way that you can referee a game without making a mistake or the better you are, the more experienced you would be at then learning from those mistakes, the less mistakes you make, the mistakes you do make. It won't really matter in the bigger picture of, of, of the game. Um, and that's the difference between the ones who become great referees or good referees are the ones who quite don't don't make it because they don't, they still make those mistakes. So I had that attitude of right. I'm not gonna be perfect today, but I'm going to be my best to be as good as I can make us less mistakes that possibly humanly can also well accepting that only I get it wrong. It happens, but you learn from it and it won't be making that same mistake again. Or if I do, it happens very, very rarely because it's just one of those human errors, which, which are avoidable. So that was, that was one of the tools that I used really, um, in dealing with the other one I use as well and is I hate it when I give somebody the opportunity to say, Nigel Owens was rubbish today, or that wasn't good. Or particularly the ones that tap you on the back when you're on top of your game. And then are just waiting for you to fail to stick the knife in, you know, and then it all walks of life belief in me when I'm, you know, when, when, when you make a mistake then on, you know, yourself from the performance, wasn't quite good enough today.   And you sort of hear the whispers or, you know, you can imagine a knife going in that then strives me on to make sure, right. I show them, I show them the next game. You know, that, you know, class is  permanent, form is temporary, so they say, so I’ve used that as well I’ve used the negatives. And that's what I tell some of the young referees, cause I've started coaching a few young Welsh referees here in Wales. And that's what I will go into more now as my refereeing eases off during the rest of this season. And I'm probably coming to an end, probably towards the end of the coaching. Um, and, um, um, and that's what I tell them, you know, when they sit, they, sometimes they pumped sometimes, you know, they also said, I didn't have a very good game next game.   You're not going to give him the ammunition or the opportunity to, to have a go at you to say it was that, you know, to be better at. And that's what I've done is when I used that, then as something, you know, not get people, not allow people to get the chance to have, particularly in Wales, maybe more than any other country, but I don't know we as human beings, I think there's too many people out there who seem to want, or like to see people fail rather than support them to get to the top and keep them out at the top. You know

RAYA HUBBELL    00:15:15   

As the years go by and the players become bigger and faster, do you think it becomes harder to coach us, excuse me, harder to ref.  

NIGEL OWENS    00:15:24   

It is faster now and born and play time much more. So your decision making has to be much quicker, you know, things are not played in slow motion. Um, so yeah, it definitely has contributed to, you know, becoming more difficult to referee in that, in that sense scrutiny as well now on new eyes as, as a referee as well. Um, so, um, it, it definitely has changed the game as evolved over the years as well.  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:15:52   

What do you think the biggest change has been?  

NIGEL OWENS 00:15:55   

Well, it's the way the game is played. Defence has become much more prominent now than it was maybe 20 years ago. When you know, you never had a defence coach 20 years ago now with defence coaches, attack coaches, everything, it teams analyse each other, they analyse referees. Um, so there's a lot of things to consider. The game is definitely faster. Now there's more pressure, more, every pretty much every game you referee know is lie. You, you know, you look back 20 years ago or whatever the game was. I even, if a game was on telly or highlights, or you had one camera there, I know you have 30, 40 cameras in this internationals looking at every single angle of it. Um, you know, the decision making when, when everything is replayed on, on the big screen. So there's a huge amount of, um, of things that I've changed and contributed to the game.      You know, simple things as well. If a ruck was formed years ago, the scrum half would get the ball. And it was only going to go down the blindside or he's going to pass out along, along the line. And that's the way the game was played. But now we have people picking and going people running in at different angles. So if you coach a referee, where to position himself years ago, when this happens, you go here. When this happens, you go there, but it doesn't happen anymore. There's so many different positions now that the referee needs to adopt to and move in different ways. So there's a lot of muscle. And one of the things that have changed in, in the game over the years,

RAYA HUBBELL 00:17:23   

How do you improve, as a referee, do you look at videos of your games that you breath to, to improve? Do you analyze yourself or do you just sort of let, let the past go and move on to the next game?  

NIGEL OWENS    00:17:36   

No, you, you, you review your own performances. Um, and, uh, part of that is you look at your game back and then I'm, I'm honest, critical of my own performances, because even after all these years of referee, I still want to perform at my, at my, at my very best. Um, and you always, you're always learning. There's always something to learn things you can do back and things you can do different. And that is all part of, of the review process. And, um, yeah, I am very, very critical of myself and the standards that I set myself and Sundays that I then want to do, want to maintain and, and keep those, keep those standards as well. And, and that's all part of the review process of your self review was loud because there's no point having somebody to reveal your performance and tell you, you did well, you did body could do better. You did pretty much everything. Well, not much to talk about, but you need to know that yourself, you need to reveal your role and challenge yourself as, as, as well, as soon as important, I think. And, um, and I think that's, you know, whatever you do, whatever sort of role you do as a, in, in sport or a job in whatever you do, there's always things that you can keep improving on or things you can do differently to maintain the standards that you set yourself.  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:18:55  

Yeah. Quite interestingly, a lot of your advice I don't actually think is solely relatable to refereeing rugby. It's very transferable in life, especially now where the world is a strange place. There, there was quite a long break this year without rugby. Um, did you struggle with the game not being there and, and how did you find the break that COVID and forced on you guys?  

NIGEL OWENS    00:19:20   

Um, do you know? I didn't struggle to be honest, probably couple of reasons was one and getting towards the end of my, of my career. So I can imagine if I was younger or starting off in my career, then, you know, we'd be desperate to get out there to referee improve yourself. But when, you know, as soon as somebody says, you know, there comes a time in your life when, you know, you know, that at the time is coming to an end and in the nicest possible way. Um, so it was wonderful cause I was coming towards the end of my, my career. Um, I also as well, I just, you know, me and my partner, we just bought a small holding, a farm sheep, cattle and stuff arrived here in November when I got back from Japan. So that was taking up a lot of times, you know, doing work on the farm, which I was, you know, I did a lot of work then during that period because I had time to do it.  Um, whereas, you know, work could have been spaced out maybe two or three years, you know, did it pretty much in four to five mass. So that was taken up part of my time. So I, I honestly didn't really, didn't really miss it at all, to be honest. You know, for the last 20 years, you know, I'm the referee now for 34 years, but for the last 20 years, traveling all over the world, coming off the end of a World Cup year, you know, reffing week in, week out, away so much, it was a little bit of a blessing in disguise to have time at home. Um, and also to give the body and the mind a rest as well, which, you know, you very rarely get a chance to do that. So, no, I honestly didn't. I honestly didn't really miss it that much, to be honest, obviously when it starts back up I’m still looking forward to the games. I was really thinking of what I'm missing, you know, missing rugby. Um, you know, as far as I'm not probably contributed hugely then to, you know, to what my plans in going forward now, you know, for the rest of the season, probably really well, a huge, I guess  

RAYA HUBBELL   00:21:22   

This leads me nicely on to the next question I'd like to ask, because talking about you're giving your body a rest and your mind a rest is very fitting because you are really an amazing spokesperson and advocate for promoting some really serious issues that often go unspoken globally, such as mental health, sexuality, and eating disorders. And these are subjects that are very rarely brought into the forefront, they are now. Um, but you've been a huge advocate. Where did you find the strength to bring these up? Because you've had, you know, three issues that a lot of people would struggle to talk about openly and publicly, and you've been a huge advocate.  

NIGEL OWENS   00:22:07   

It probably, um, probably happened quite not surely in, in, in one sense because, um, the published a, Welsh publisher here in Wales came into me around 2008 and they asked me to, um, uh, if I would want to do a autobiography in, in, in Welsh. And I said, well, okay, you know, I, I have, I'm going to the World Cup now in 2007, um, I run the referee, the World Cup…Um, the European Cup final, my first one in 2008. And that's all I had achieved really. So compared to whether referees I hadn't achieved anything, um, I said, well, you know, I'm not even halfway through my career yet in one sentence, sort of halfway through my career. And he said, no, I'm not people who, you know, would want, cause I came out sort of 2007 just before the World Cup.  So they're just snippets of the newspapers and stuff about it and, you know, people, you know, and read my story and facing the fact there's, you know, there's a lot more to it than just refereeing. Um, I said, I said, no. And then I didn't do an, a paper then before one of the World Cup and the story of me coming out and everything, and then dealing with it. And then, then the dark times and everything. And then I had a letter from a parent, um, thanking me for basically saving their son's life. The son was going through the same thing, he was 15, 16 years of age. He'd read my story online from a newspaper article and sort of then up the courage to challenge exactly what was wrong, where he wouldn't tell them being were sort of living on eggshells. Um, and, um, that then sort of, um, made me think, you know, well that actually has helped somebody.  So, and then the publisher came back and said, um, you know, your story would help a lot of people and I thought, maybe it would as well. And then I did the book and then the story, you know, everything was in the book. And then I got a lot of messages and people letters and, you know, Facebook messages and direct messages and people getting in touch, um, you know, share their stories, how helpful it was. And then I sort of started talking about it in some talks and stuff, you know, because it was helping people and that's how it all sort of came about. So, you know, so I never really thought of, you know, I go into service because I need to have it just by chance really. And then, you know, the fact that it was helping people, um, that's, that's how it all came about really in, in one sense,  

RAYA HUBBELL 00:24:45   

I think it's amazing. It's only until you realize the impact it has on others, how important it is to be vocal about your experiences and how you've dealt with it. Um, I know in particular I have a very dear friend who was on the all blacks track in New Zealand, um, a young rising star who ultimately left the game of professional rugby to move to the UK because he was also gay and didn't feel comfortable in the sport over New Zealand. And now is one of the head coaches for the Kings Cross Steelers, which is an openly gay, all inclusive rugby club in London. And without stories like yours and messages like yours, I don't think the game could be inclusive like that or open in today's world. And so that's, you know, it's something to really shine a light on and be very proud. 

NIGEL OWENS   00:25:41   

I think that's the same as if for mental health stuff as well. You know, it's just, it's a bit of a taboo subject. Nobody would be talking about it, but because, you know, the Freddie Flintoff program on, on, on is suffering with bulemia. So when people know of other people who've experienced the same thing or go through something that they go into, it does help immensely. And I sort of realized that when I lost my mum. I found a lot of comfort with some of my friends who had lost their mum and, you know, some had lost them when they were sort of young kids some you know a few years before I lost mine. And that was a lot of comfort. Cause it sort of made you feel that I'm not the only one here and also as well. You know, I, I lost my mom when I was what, 34, 35 years of age, I think.  So I sort of felt I've had my mum for 55 years. My mate has only had his, his mom for 16 years. He took a lot of comfort on that. And then it's quite rarely went in the same really in people sharing those experiences. So when you hear whether people are going through something that you have been through, something that you read, so you can relate to it, particularly then if it's, you know, somebody who's, who's well known like Flintoff sharing his bulemia, um, story and, and all the other stars and your sporting stars. And, you know, you have your famous actors who, you know, come out and share their experiences of mental health or depression or drinking problem, or a lot of people that can relate to that. I'm not having a lot of people enormously, I think. And that's why I think it's important that, you know, we, we do, I don't share my experiences because, you know, I just want to tend to everybody, um, cause it's difficult to share this feelings, but I know it does have the amount of response I get when I do talks and stuff on it, the huge amount of responses from it that it helps people and makes it worthwhile and sort of reading you realize how important it is to share those experiences with.  

RAYA HUBBELL   00:27:45   

I couldn't agree more the likes of Freddie Flintoff coming out and being open about his eating disorder and you being a figurehead for the LGBT community and sport is so incredible. But actually the two of you are examples of only a handful of people in sport who have spoken out about their battles with mental health or being openly gay. Why do you think we haven't seen more people coming forward? Is there still a stigma attached to these issues? 

NIGEL OWENS    00:28:09   

Well, yeah, that is still a stigma attached, there’s no doubt about that, but, but I think as well, it's something it's, you know, it's something personal. So when you think of people who are in the public eye, if Joe Bloggs up the road, shares his story, then it's not going to be, yeah, people are living around it, we'll be talking about it, but nobody had us to the next village or, you know, or in other parts of the country will be, we'll be talking about it. But when somebody in the public eye and their share, whatever it is that they're going through, it has a huge impact then, on them, on, on social media and on the media platforms because people will talk about it. Um, so that I think, you know, you have to be a certain type of person, a strong person maybe, you know, to be able to, to deal with that.   You know, because a lot of people, a lot of people don't want their private lives in public. So I know one or two LGBT people have said to me. Look, I'm more than happy with who I am. Um, but I don't want the world to know, but it's, it's, it's my, it's my business. And it's nobody else’s so they won't share it and that’s fine. Others then find it difficult to accept it themselves. You know? So, you know, if it was anything like I was, I took me using you to accept too, I was, you can't expect somebody to come out, for example, in the public eye, um, when they're dealing with themselves, they they're fighting it themselves. You know, like accepting something that is alien to them. Maybe like, like it was, was to me. So there are many, many, many different reasons I think.   So it's not the case that, you know, sport or rugby is, um, it's homophobic because you, you know, you can't come up. No, it's not rugby. It's not homophobic. And I'm pretty sure football won't be as well. What you have in all walks of life and in all sport is individuals or certain groups that may be homophobic, that may be racist. It doesn’t make a sport racist. But obviously in football, you have a louder voice because there are more people in football than there are in rugby. So, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of different things, I think also as well. Yes. You know, it is still a bit of a taboo. It's still difficult to be an LGBT person today because some people just don't like it. So, um, so, so it is, it is difficult as well. So there are many, many reasons. So what we have to do is just, you know, understanding that some people just want to keep themselves quite focused on there's nothing wrong with that, but also as well, we need to ensure that the environment that they're in, whether it's it's in the home, within the communities, in the workplace or in Sports, that they are allowed and able to be themselves. And then once they know, well, people don't care the nicest possible way. I'm able to be myself that will help them then to be themselves and to come up with a still at the moment, they don't feel comfortable in coming up as well. But there are many, many different reasons. I think that contribute to. People say, well, why is there more people out? When it's just not as simple as that for many, many different reasons.   

RAYA HUBBELL 00:31:17    

Yeah. Well, and I think actually you having been such a big advocate in a figurehead over these last few years is a really, is an amazing starting point. Um, and I think, like you said, there will be a change in society over the next 10, 20 years as we've seen in the last 20. Um, so it's stories like yours that make it much easier for future future stories to emerge. Um, you have spoken about the fact that this is potentially the end of your refereeing career.   

NIGEL OWENS   00:31:53    

Yeah. Yeah. Know common sense. And I'm getting older, you know, and one, my, you know, I, I want to be home more. I want to be, you know, spend more time with my partner. My family. had told me that I need to be home more as well because of the animals - dogs as well. So I, you know, I, I want to do a challenge, do other things as well. So yeah. I want to be home, a lot of commitment, a lot of traveling and referee, and I've done it for the best part of 20 years of all the traveling all over the world. So, um, Oh, no, sorry. You don't understand that. You know, when, when you bought already guessed for a certain age, you know, tie encounters where you need to be sensible as well. And so when, when it would be, whether it'd be in a few months time end of the season next season, I honestly don't know, but it will probably be within, within the end of this season or certainly by next year, I would say maybe, maybe towards the end of this season, but we'll see how the, you know, how things go over the next couple of couple of months and now I'm feeling  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:32:53    

So what is next -  could it be something within the game, or something different. Are we going to become, um, a cow farmer, or maybe even a standup comedian   

NIGEL OWENS   00:33:04    

It won’t be stand up comedy because that’s too difficult.   

RAYA HUBBELL    00:33:09    

Well, especially cause all the comedy clubs are shut down. 

NIGEL OWENS    00:33:14    

Yeah and political correctness has gone mad. You can’t make a joke because somebody is going to be offended. So, um, yeah, I needed a bit of everything. I think I said, you're going to be still involved with something in rugby, as I said in the, be coaching a couple of referees here in Wales. So it's a lot of take up, you know, a couple of days a week or so many hours a week, whichever way it would work. Um, rather then doing, doing work on the farm at all. Um, uh, and also as well. I hope you to set a holiday let business as well in one of the cottages, we were hoping to get planning. Um, plus, um, you know, I, I still be doing some TV work, some, some speaking stuff as well. So there had been a bit of a variety of everything really. So I, it won't be a case of, you know, this is what I'm going to be doing and nothing else undo, you know, obviously being home now will be a priority as well.  

RAYA HUBBELL 00:34:10    Yeah. Well, we wish you all the best for that. I hope that the farm goes well and you get to spend a lot more time at home with the family. Thank you so much. Nigel it's been great to have you on the show.   

OJ BORG   00:34:29    

Nigel Owens they're talking to Raya on the Good Time Sports, Club, he's such an inspiration. Raya such an inspiration. I mean, I love rugby for the way it treats itsreferees and that, and that, that the respect starts, then they will take no nonsense whatsoever. I mean, you have to do with a game, which isn't contact game is a game of collisions. You have to, everyone has to be safe. You have to respect the referee. You have to call him, sir. I think other sports and I'm sort of given a bit of slight hear straight at football. And by that, I mean, soccer, they really need to take a leaf out of that book. And I, I believe the, the role model that it shows to kids, people like Nigel Owens and other of the rugby referees, I think it shows younger people from the game, a sense of respect from a young age, because you don't get away with it. Your hero shows respect to it to a figure of a figure of authority, which you don't get in football. So seeing whoever is shouting at a referee, screaming at them, and it doesn't help in football, I've gone off on a tangent. He is great. Raya he's an amazing guy, great interview   

RAYA HUBBELL    00:35:24    

I really, really enjoyed hearing his story because it's not just his inspiration on the pitch. It is what he's done subsequent outside of the sport, which just makes him, um, really a remarkable human being. It was, it was actually a pleasure to interview him because I really didn't know much about him prior to, to getting to speak with him. But yeah, absolutely brilliant.  Having watched the presidential debate and the vice pressure presidential debate, which was as we record, this was last night. Um, he would have done such a good job, such a job of, of managing to stop people, walking all over them because the moderators have been poor. 

OJ BORG 00:36:00

They've been poor they've they've not dealt with it. I just, I just think Nigel Owens is so quick witted and people respect to immediately. He's one of those people that I'd never, I've not interviewed him, I've spoken to him, but he just looks like he commands immediate respect.   

RAYA HUBBELL 00:36:13    

Yeah. A hundred percent. And you know, when, uh, uh, fly takes over the debate, you need someone like Nigel Owens to bring everything back in check.   

OJ BORG    00:36:25    

If you haven't seen it, a fly, landed on a Mike Pence has had during the VP debate last night for two minutes, but basically taking us back to 2012, uh, cause there was immediately about 4,000, “I'm the fly on Mike Pence’s head” Twitter accounts appeared, which got immediately loads and loads of followers. Um, now let's do this. We've been doing our top tens, which I've absolutely loved, um, this week we're going to do what Mark Payne I love this. Just tell me what we're doing. 

MARK PAYNE 00:36:50

We're doing celebrating early because, um, I was trying to find something that didn't relate to cycling. So it's is just the starting point for this is a fantastic moment. It relates to so many Sports. This will come into, um, it comes from reigning world champion, uh, Julian Alaphillipe who won the title seven days ago or seven days prior.  Massive moment. He gets the rainbow Jersey, very prestigious and he takes it to a monument. Now, apart from the grand tours, the monuments are the biggest thing a cyclist can win apart from world championships as well. And he has done all the hard work, 220 odd K gets to the finish line, throws his hands in the air and then is overtaken by Primoz Roglic the man who lost out on the tour de France and an amazing bit of almost justice. He gets something for his year. 

OJ BORG 00:37:30

I thought it was a great, I thought it was a great analogy. I really thought it was a great analogy for Primoz Roglic instead, Primoz Roglic was playing the, uh, the role of Pogacar rather than Primoz, but just instead of it being a three week grand tour, it was a single one day race. He was getting his own back   

MARK PAYNE    00:37:58    

Well, but you know, Tom Dumoulin that footage that we talked about a couple of weeks ago when he was upset, of Tom Dumoulin and understanding dumbstruck at the finish with Wout Van Aert, it was that again. There's a great moment of like the reflection of what happened at the tour de France. He was smiling, beaming and laughing as they showed the replay. It was a great moment for anyone that kind of was down with them. I picked back up and then if you feel a bit down in Julian Alaphilippe, is that he celebrated too early, again, a couple of days ago now nearly lost again, but this time held on just enough. So just enough. 

OJ BORG 00:38:30

And when you say just enough, it was the width of a tyre. That's how close it was, I saw the slowmo again. 

MARK PAYNE 00:38:40

So what I would say to Julian is please, if you're going to celebrate, do it after you cross the line. 

OJ BORG 00:38:45

It was so so French, so unbelievably French, isn't it brilliant 

MARK PAYNE 00:38:50

Well I’ve got some people here, the odd French one and some of them I think are just as gratuitous, if not more. And some of them, when you probably might have seen the footage of some of these, some of these will make your eyes water and your cringe glands expand in ways you didn't know they could.   

OJ BORG     00:39:05    

A friend of mine calls it hot elbows. It's one of those ones where you go, Oh, and you start rubbing your elbows. So as always, I like to rate, these are 10, I think. And I apologize for the extra edits in that you’re gonna have to put into this Mark we should **** sake out of 10, it's what they should be rated out of. So Julian Alaphilippe and at Brabatse Pijl um, how many **** sake out of 10 are you going for Raya?   

RAYA HUBBELL    00:39:31    

I would have gone for the big old round 10 had he done it twice in the row, in the space of the time that he's done it, but I will go for a solid eight today.   

OJ BORG 00:39:46    

Yeah, because as I said, it's so unbelievably French cycling. He was wearing the world champion stripes. So in some ways it had done the hard work. What makes them a great rider is what makes him lose at this point? It's so rock and roll is brilliantly rock and roll. If you want to get your kids into cycling, let them watch Alaphilippe because the way he wins and the way he loses is pure drama. So for me, it's only five **** sakes. 

MARK PAYNE    00:40:12    

Okay, well thanks for that extra editing work. It's all good. Now what we're going to do is winter Olympics. So somewhere you would understand, uh Raya and, and I can remember watching this and just mouth open staring, um, Olympic final. You've worked your whole career to get to an Olympic final. You've dominated all your heats. You get there, new, up clear of the field. Lindsey Jacobellis snowboarding legend, pulling clear. On the final jump decides she's going to do a mute grab, grabs the board. She misjudges, gets a bit too over cocky leans forward falls down gets overtaken, ends up with a bronze medal. She had the gold in hand with less than 50 metres to go after four year's work 

OJ BORG    00:41:01    

I demure to, I demure to you here. Raya this is your world. 

 RAYA HUBBELL 00:41:06    

Do you know? It's really interesting because I was an Alpine ski racer and snowboarding has taken winter sports to a whole nother level, which requires the acrobatics and the gymnastics and the much greater talent in some respects to the Alpine skier of my era. Um, and in a way there is a level of showboating, I think that's required for this sport. And so there is level almost of expectations when you are leading by such a level to be a little bit pompous and a little bit sort of gloating and boasting about your accomplishment. But come on, you've just lost two, two. You've just been down. You've downgraded yourself to metals here. That's that's tough going. Um, and with, with the big ones, see, I dunno, this is this a solid seven for me.  

OJ BORG    00:42:01    

Yeah I'm with you there again. I completely agree with you. What makes snowboarding great is that people get it wrong. And I remember being on ski on a snowboarding trip, I was in Beaver Creek, which always still make you laugh. I mean, I'm 41 years old. I should go over the humor there. And on the final day, which nobody for way, my mate was one of the mountain drivers there. So it had a lovely week, had a great time. And I thought I saw at the end, I, you know, I bought a new snowboard. I was rocking. I really thought I had some skills after a week of boarding. And I got down to the, and I thought I'm going to, I'm going to do a stop and then sit on this wall. Um, and right there, I misjudged it slightly and basically dislocated my shoulder and had to fly all the way back to the UK.  And it was the last run or the last day. And I just misjudged. I was in so much pain. I don't think I did dislocate if I really hurt it. So it's that sort of thing where you think you've nailed it. You are hoisted by your own petard. I don't know a petard is, I'd have to Google it, but that's very much what you've done. So I'm going to say that is what did you go for? Seven 

RAYA HUBBELL 00:42:52

Seven. 

OJ BORG 00:42:53

Yeah, I'm going to seven. The mitigating circumstance for me is it's a sport where you get good by trying these things. And I, I think to be a true, great in something like snowboarding, you will carry on trying these things and you will carry on making these mistakes. And when it works, it's great when it doesn't work while you're, so I'm going to go seven **** sakes out of 10 as well.  

MARK PAYNE     00:43:15    

Okay. Next on my list. I mean, you talk about doing things twice. There is a certain quality in doing things twice and we showed you, haven't learned your lesson. And one name that immediately jumped to my mind was DeSean Jackson. DeSean Jackson built reputation in the NFL as one of the most explosive wide receivers ever to hit the game, known for his ability to get down the field. And basically the untouchable once he’d caught the ball  he would pull clear 10 meters and having all the time in the world to celebrate as he went into the end zone, except when he was in college playing for Cal. He thought he’d show off and try to do a front flip into the end zone and in doing so, he landed about an inch short and dropped the ball in the process. And basically the touchdown wasn't given and the other team got possession of the ball. Now it was a horrible moment for him. I can remember rightly Cal lost the game as well. So pretty painful. A few years later, he's now a professional. He's playing for the Dallas Cowboys, probably the biggest American football team you can name in a rivalry game against the Philadelphia Eagles in Dallas. He gets the ball, clean down the field. He runs, he's got the ball, holding it behind him. And as he gets to the line, he flips it in the, air, the ball doesn't cross the end zone, he fumbles it and the Eagles are able to pick it up. So twice he made the same exact mistake of not carrying the ball into the end zone because he was celebrating too.  

OJ BORG     00:44:40    

Respect, absolute respect, absolute respect, a solid eight out of 10, no seven out of 10. I'm going to stay with what the mitigating circumstances again is what a man, what a guy, what an absolute guy, I would say by was the director of American football at one of those teams, I would immediately hire him just simply because what guy, you know, seven out of 10,  

RAYA HUBBELL   00:45:06    

This is, again, this is a game which has got so much tactics involved. There's so much strategy. But at the end of the day, when you get that ball to the end zone, it is all about showboating. So you better be practicing those moves and get them right. Especially doing in college is one thing, but doing it in the NFL when you've already made that mistake and blender come on eight out of 10.  

MARK PAYNE    00:45:30    

Okay. So now we go into one of the hardest Sports there is to do, a marathon and the 2007 Chicago marathon. And there's a first timer at the front of the race Andrea Pirtea. She is pulling clear, she's winning, you know, a marathon is 26.2 miles. And she's within that 0.2 miles, when she sort of pulls to one side, still going at a fair pace to start slapping hands with all the fans and the commentary to this clip, which would be on the website is incredible because it's just one of those moments where they, you can see it happening a long, long way before the participants involved, because they keep saying, what's incredible with this girl. Is this is her first ever marathon and she's not looked back once. She's never looked behind me. She's got into the break. She never looks over her shoulder. And as the camera pans into a wide shot, you see the second place runner Berhane Adere just slowly appearing into the shop and then realizing this is on if she sprints. So she gets up on the balls of her feet and sprints at the exact moment that Andrea Pirtea slows down even further. It’s one of those moments where the last, probably 50 meters of the race, she realises she's being overtaken, she tries to sprint, realises that she hasn't got the time and loses the race. 

OJ BORG    00:46:50    

Okay. That's a 10 out of 10. That is a 10 out of 10 because I don't think there's, there's no real showboat in there. There's no mitigating circumstances. That is just look behind you. I mean, don't get me wrong. Keep running give it the full Forrest Gump. But when you get towards the end, at least check, I mean, a tire width is one thing, but getting overtaken in a marathon, man, I mean, it's not even, I mean, it's like, Oh yeah, 10 out of 10 for me.Gutted, wounded.  

RAYA HUBBELL 00:47:15    

Especially as it's her first marathon. You want to make sure that you're getting yourself in. If you are in that winning position, that there is, there is a thing. And in cycling, it's very similar. You shouldn't look back unless there's tactics being played. So there might've been something like that. But the same thing happened. The London marathon this weekend, um, with third place, I can't remember her name, but shouldn't the American girl run. It ran down. She was in fourth and ran down third and second and ran down second place in the last 200 meters and sprinted full pelt. And again, she just left these women for dust. It was quite, it was quite remarkable. Um, and it was because no one was looking back and she just had her head focused on the game. So it is, uh, it doesn't sound like she was showboating as much as some of the other guys. So I'm going to go for a nine, but yeah, definitely a mistake,  

MARK PAYNE    00:48:12    

The world of motorsport now. And this is one of those replays, this gets shown all the time, but you might not know the story behind it. So it's from a Formula 3000 race, which is now the equivalent of Formula 2, and it's, I mean, it's the team of a very young Christian Horner who was managing Arden. And you want to be as drivers with a Swedish guy Bjorn Wirdheim who won the title that year. It's Monaco, it’s the most prestigious race on the calendar. He has won the race. He's got an eight second lead over Nico Kiesa all he has to do is cross the line. He slows down under his team’s pit garage to celebrate with the mechanics, thinking he's got a far bigger lead or thinking he's crossed the line. And it's one of those really horrible moments where you can see, in the reaction on the car, exactly what’s going on in his head. He slows down the car, moves to a virtual stop as Kiesa approaches in the background. He's still not seeing him. It's then that he sees him at the last second. He realizes, Oh crap. I'm not across the line, puts his foot down the car, squirms and Kiesa crosses the line and he loses

OJ BORG    00:49:19    

Oh no, I want is. I want a super cut of all these things when I'm feeling bad about myself. And I feel like, you know, I feel like I've made a ton of mistakes and I'm losing a life. And I feel like I've been blasted into space. I'm like a dog being blessed into space via non-caring humanity. And all I'm trying to do is not slobber on the, uh, the, uh, the button that opens the, uh, the air. I'm going to watch that cause it'll make me feel better.  

MARK PAYNE    00:49:45    

I was going to say one of the things that really strikes me about this is, Christian Horner is a bit of a divisive figure in formula one and some people really like him. Some people find him a bit annoying. If you were in that second camp, it’s a grand moment as you watch him slowly slide down the pit wall as he suddenly realizes.  

OJ BORG    00:50:11    

Yeah. God I mean, motor sports, another thing as well, isn't it? I mean, sometimes some of the characters in motor sports, so they're hard to love. They're hard to love the character. So sometimes you're like, yeah, eat when, when it all goes wrong. I don't mean that some characters are obviously very lovable, but some of them are just  

MARK PAYNE    00:50:35    

Creating characters. We love to hate yes, I’m not saying Christian Horner. Is that for me. But no, no, no. Some of the people I've seen online when this clip comes up under there's a lot of people pointing out. They particularly enjoy that moment.  

OJ  BORG    00:50:48    

Yeah. Yeah. There was, there was a certain racing driver who I didn't just, he wasn't my favorite, but I do remember him crying in a Bush Kimi Raikkonen and it was after he crashed out of a race. And that was it. 

MARK PAYNE 00:51:04

Mika Hakkinen 

OJ BORG 00:51:06

Mika Hakkinen sorry and he crashed out of a race, the flying fin or his card broke down. I think obviously he realized the stress got to him and they're just wanting to get this helicopter shot of him down, still wearing his helmet. You don't know he's crying or just the way he was sort of leaning into a Bush  

MARK PAYNE    00:51:15    

That was Monza 1999, so you have the title on the line. It looked like he'd lost it. And he basically made a mistake coming into chicane and the car spun and stalled. And he just, it was amazing. Cause it looked like he was going to disappear from site and he just like sprinted into the woods for bit of privacy. But, cause it's in Italy and he was racing Michael Schumacher, Italy, Ferrari Schumacher, all connected. They go, right. Let's get a helicopter and catch him at his lowest moment. 

OJ BORG 00:51:47    

You are such a nerd. Mark Payne such a nerd when it comes to motor sport. I love it. I mean, wow. Yeah. I have a may or may I say your pronunciations are our top level. I need to be coached by you. I need an intensive coaching on your pronunciation?  

MARK PAYNE    00:52:04    

What were you rating that one?  

OJ BORG  00:52:07    

Uh, I think I rated it a nine **** sakes out of 10.  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:52:14    

Yeah. Come coming to nearly a complete stop before you've crossed the finish line gives you top, top **** sake ratings .

OJ BORG    00:52:25    

Oh she said it, that's the first time, well done Raya. We’ve probably got time for one more Mark or should we, are we wrapping it up here?  

MARK PAYNE    00:52:28    

One more. I reckon. Um, now I'm just trying to work out where we go. Now let's go for one. Let's be populist for once. Let's go for one that a lot of people remember it was fairly recent, um, Champions League quarterfinals and the scourge of VAR. Um, but also one of those moments of when you celebrate too soon. So Spurs are playing Manchester City in the Champions league quarterfinal, big opportunity to get through. Manchester city if they score, will go through on the away goals. It looks like it's happened when Raheem Sterling gets it, tucks away. He's finished to make it for what's been an incredible game up to that point. The only problem was he was offside. And when I say he's offside he's offside by not much it goes to VAR. But before then Pep Guardiola is on camera, celebrating and, not just throwing a hand in the air.  

I'm talking about screaming, running into this shouting punching and the moment where it all went wrong. And the goal was to sell out is incredible because the sinks to his knees, somebody that'd be in the Simpsons, where Ralph Wiggam’s heart explodes and Bart's got the remote. You can just see his whole world collapse in front of him. It all falls apart. And also on the other side of it, there's a great clip that was going around the internet of a Man City fan who left the game at the point, the goal went in and he was interviewed and he said, well, I'm looking forward to the next leg against Ajax. And then when you're out, you mean, no, we scored at the last minute. No, it's just been ruled mate. Your kidding me. Whichever one of those you want to take out of that. 

OJ BORG    00:54:13    

I mean, what a nightmare, what a nightmare, because football is very much like that. I'm giving it the full, the big boy. Give me the 10 at 10  

RAYA HUBBELL 00:54:20    

I'm with you. I've not made it any secret that I think football could be a beautiful game. I think it is. There's so much amazing attributes to it, but it's often follows footballers, which is I can describe it right now. Um, and because of the celebrations and often that they're so over the top and the dives and the theatrical that just don't need to be there. This is right up at a 10 all day long. I really wish I could see the disappointment on his face. That's that would be my favorite bit.  

OJ BORG    00:55:00    

I could hear his tears rolling down his cheeks and landing on the grass. Um, yeah. You know what Raya has got it bang on. I think we both got it. Bang on 10 out of 10, 10, six out of 10. May I say I've enjoyed every swear word that I used there. Mark Good luck. Bleeping those out.  

MARK PAYNE    00:55:19    

Our host. They're going to love us when I have to go through it and send it off.  

OJ BORG    00:55:23    

Yeah, they were great. The top 10 should be able to find all of them on the website, which Mark is  

MARK PAYNE   00:55:30    

ShockedGiraffe.com/GoodTimeSportsClub

OJ BORG    00:55:33    

And that brings us to the end of another amazing episode. I say amazing. It's being self reverential, but I mean it having Nigel Owens on chatting with Raya having a top 10. I love it. Raya love it. Love it. Love it.  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:55:44    

You are wonderful. OJ thank you. That's why we make it. So good you’re here buddy?

OJ BORG    00:55:50    

That's it from us? The Good Time Sports Club is a Shocked Giraffe production was produced by Mark Payne additional support from James Watkins  

RAYA HUBBELL    00:55:57    

Special thanks to our guest Nigel Owens for joining us this week 

OJ BORG 00:56:00

I’m OJ Borg, 

RAYA HUBBELL 00:56:01

and I'm Raya Hubbell  

OJ BORG   00:56:03    

So until next time Good day to you madam!

RAYA HUBBELL 00:56:04

See you!